Author Topic: A Dynamic world  (Read 9355 times)

Offline fame a

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A Dynamic world
« on: October 25, 2008, 11:54:45 PM »
I've been playing many games (MMOs and CORPGs). In each and every one of those games, the world wasnt dynamic enough. Not nearly as dynamic as TR. I'm refering to the PvE content, which is very popular, as you know very well. When I first came to TR, I really liked the dynamics of the world. The sudden dropships that drop monsters on the squad. The Control Points (CPs) and more. In every forum I read, people praise that part of TR (when they mention TR), even if they didnt like they game. I can tell you, though, that many many many players I've been talking to (over the years) wanted to have an impact on the world. They want to be able to change to world (at least to some degree). To make a change. I know its very complex for a game developer, but after a lot of thinking, I came with a suggestion that might be a good start (I hope).


* My suggestion:
To cause reactions (in the map) to a CP (control point) that is captured a said amount of time. Here are the details:

1. When a CP is captured, its going to be attack as it was so far. However, if players somehow manage to defend the CP successfully 2 times in a row (for example), the bane (in the map) will start to react. Their reaction will be larger and larger, and it will depend on the amount of successful times the players were able to defend the CP.

What are the reactions I suggest?

* Initial reaction: The bane will start to drop forces AROUND the CP (all the time, not only when the CP is under attack). Those bane will not attack the CP, but will secure the area.

* The next reaction: Bane will start to send reinforcements to the area AROUND the CP (all the time). Those bane will come from places where the bane are concentrated. For example: From CPs that are controlled by the bane, or from instances in which the bane control (like Cutha Base). Those bane will go out of the instance (or CP), and concentrate in a said point. A dropship is going to come to take them from there. The bane will not attack the players (when they're going to be picked up), unless they're going to be attacked.

* Final reaction: The bane attacking the CP will get tougher and tougher. They can be of higher level, or they can come in greater amounts.

* If the CP (control point) is taken again, by the bane, the world (map) will revert to the way it was before.


2. I also suggest a reaction to the successful completion of some instances:

For example: If the "live target pens" were destroyed (someone completed that instance successfully), the bane will reinforce the area with many troops. Bane will be seen taking resources into the instance (to build it all again). This could even be just for 10-15 minutes, and then everything will be "back to normal". If players try to prevent the bane from building the place again, very serious reinforcements will arrive (maybe even unstoppable). Its important that the instance will be available again as soon as possible.


3. Another suggestion could be: Some "Flashpoint" quests will be triggered by CPs that are being defended 2-3 (or more) times in a row, or instances that were successfully completed. Maybe this suggestion could be combined with my No.1 suggestion (about the reaction to CP defense). For example: The bane will reinforce the area around the CP, and the "FLASHPOINT" quest will be to anihilate 100 of them (for example).


Why do I suggest all this? Because the world will be much more dynamic and players will have an impact on the world. Not only that, but players will be able to get the feeling that something is happening on the map. When the routine is broken, and signs of activity (on both sides, not just the players') are seen, it becomes much more interesting. Breaking the routine, influencing the world AND being able to cooperate easily is going to move this game to the next level (in my opinion).

One thing this great game lacks, is cooperation. When your help is welcome, no matter who you are and if you're in the same squad, its going to promote cooperation. A different cooperation than being in the same squad, but still a great cooperation. War is dynamic. Make it look like a war. That's what I think.

Offline Gangrel

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Re: A Dynamic world
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2008, 12:03:45 AM »
There are *some* occasions of where completing one mission produces a noticable effect on the game world.

The spawning of the Strider boss in Torden Plains is one, the prevention of Predators being launched in Divide (IIRC) is another.

The *only* issue that i can see with some of these things happening is that too many bane in the zone can lag it out (this was what originally caused Torden Mires to be known as the worst zone in the game for lag) so unless people DO thin out the mobs the performance of the server will just degrade more and more (which was why Torden Plains wasnt an issue right after a server reboot, but it was a couple of hours later on).

Good idea's though, now lets see if they can implement them without making the game a complete lag fest.
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Offline fame a

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Re: A Dynamic world
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2008, 12:14:15 AM »
I know you're right about this one (lag mostly), and that's why it can be tested. Furthermore, I forgot to mention that its mostly directed to the higher level areas like HM (Howling Maw).

High level players are almost never taking those CPs (and you can say the same about CPs like the "Drill Resonator" at Descent). Its ridiculous since you dont need more than 2 players to hold those places. In my case its always a grenadier and a medic. The propellants and the sacrifice create such an amazing impact, that they're dying like flies (my friend ditched those rocket launchers for good, after trying those propellant guns with me. and no, we DONT have money problems because of the ammunition). Hey, I"m not so special and everybody can do that. I left the ammo depot (CP at HM) after defending the place for 4 times in a row. It was boring. I'll say it again: I'm not special and everyone can do that.  However, making it more challenging and dynamic, and creating more cooperation (in the way I mentioned) can be very interesteing in my opinion.

There must be a way to break the routine and make it feel more dynamic and war-like (I'm not talking about WAR, which is warhammer).

By the way, if a huge amount of monsters can cause lags, you can spawn a smaller amount of them, and make them stronger. I guess it's going to involve changes in the types and the levels. For example: Striders, Stalkers, or special bane that are stronger than the normal ones (compared to the map).
« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 12:19:18 AM by fame a »

Offline Gangrel

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Re: A Dynamic world
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2008, 12:59:48 AM »
The ammo depot though i have to admit is one of the more interesting CP's in the game. Due to the 4 bane turrets, they generally make short work of the oppostition.

And yes, it can be held without dying. Other CP's in Howling Maw though, I cannot hold without dying.

And yes, I would love to see level 54 and 55 bane in Howling Maw :D
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Offline fame a

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Re: A Dynamic world
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2008, 08:37:59 AM »
off topic:

Its not the canons that make such short work of them. Maybe the first wave which is always very easy. The second wave is also not so hard (almost always, in ever CP), but the last wave is all about you. If you're able to make short work of them so easily, without using cowardly and ineffective tactics (such as hit and hide), it means that its just too easy.

The game design rewards close ranged fighting greatly. Have you tried scourge with sacrifice and rage? I dont know exactly why, but the scourge is doing about 100% more damage than it should do. I guess its the sacrifice but I didnt really test it through (to see what exactly buffs the scourge). Now think about tectonic strike buffed that way. Propellants guns that are doing about 215% more damage than they should (sacrifice 5 and rage 5). You should see it in action. They're dying so fast, you cant understand what's happening. Tools, immunities, protection (from debuffs) and you're staying there as long as you want.

Long ranged weapons cant compare, because you cant use short ranged skills like scourge and tectonic strike (which takes them down VERY fast. you've got to see).. AND... because of the DPS and the important side effects. A launcher, for example, is shooting very slow (5 sec recharge with launchers 5, if you drop the long beading time) and does 50% damage to all monsters except one. That DPS is terrible, compared to propellant guns.

Now lets start mentioning the important side effects: The use of criticals, and damage types. Fire and ice (cryogenic) damage types are probably the best damage types I've ever encountered, especially when your spirit is buffed by 60-90% (bio augmentation + reconstruction 3 once or twice). The ice can hit almost all bane types equally and stun them enough time to kill them real hard (especially if you put scourge on top of that). Once the Kaels are dead (it takes exactly 3 seconds because they come to you), you pull the fire and they're dead before you even notice. A lot of critical hits also equals to more damage. A lot more damage. Do I need to mention that hitting many times (like propellants and chainguns) use your crit rate in the best way? Simple statistics, no more. No, I dont have money problems because of the ammunition. I really have no idea why people are complaining. I've got everything I need, and much more (equipment and ammunition).

I could go on, but let me just tell you that after trying long ranged weapons/class and short ranged classes/builds, I can tell that it cant even be compared. That's why I said that hit and run is ineffective. When you've got a team to protect you (immunities, protection and tools are good examples), you can start doing real damage. Something that long ranged ways cant get. Not by a long shot. Why should the devs make it different? No one would want to be standing in the front lines, where the action is, if ranged fighting was as effective. The fact is that the devs know very well what they're doing. They buffed the short ranged weapons and skills so much, that you just need to get someone to support you, and you're going to become more effective than many people standing on the walls (I'm talking about CPs. The tougher ones mostly).




back on topic:

When I think it through, I can tell that its much better to have less monsters, but stronger ones. Its the latency issues (you were right about it) and its the ease in which you can kill them. It doesnt make you feel that the bane are serious about it (about securing the area). It requires much more thinking and team work to take out fewer (but stronger) monsters. Instead of a little AoE (even a fire support is enough for the "small fish" around the world. I'm not talking about CPs above your level), you get monsters that force you to defend yourself. That could be by using allies to protect you, or just by having more people around to kill the monsters. The flashpoint idea could really do that.  Lets face it, I havent seen many supporting classes around, compared to other classes.

Go to any CP around (for example), and you'll mostly see people using ineffective strategies because they have no one to support them. Would long ranged weapons be so popular (and hiding on the walls, or behind the force-field so many times) if people could reach their killing potential? There's no doubt about it: The greatest amount of damage can only be done in close range. Nothing compares. Good teams of even just 3 people can take on CPs that are 7 levels ABOVE their level (and less people = more xp, loot and prestige for each one). THAT is effective.

My suggestion can help people meet other people more, and help those who are taking challenging tasks such as CP defense (of course its tough only if you have a few people killing monsters way above their level, but I think you get my point).

A lot of people arent going to party with each other, when it comes to such a flashpoint (like the  one I offered), unless its a support class that can really help a team. One of the reasons for that is the solo builds that classes like engineers take. I dont blame them. For a team build to be worth it, you need to make them feel that its worth it. Provide a lot of opportunities in which its worth it. My suggestion fits in just fine, in my opinion.

I also thought about another way that can really help with that. An option to teleport the AFS to where the real action is (nearby). You see the bane drop reinforcements all the time. Why cant we do that, when something important like a Flashpoint occurs? This part of the suggestion can really encourage more and more people to take a part of the effort. More people will meet and fight together (even if not in the same squad). Its going to "break" the routine, and make you feel like its a dynamic world. It makes you feel like you're at war.

I really hope its going to be implemented, if it really is a good idea.

Its up to the devs, of course. I'm sure they know very well what they're doing, since I'm very satisfied with the game design so far (although I do believe that some things could be better, yet nothing is perfect of course).
« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 08:45:46 AM by fame a »

Offline System_Crush

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Re: A Dynamic world
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2008, 09:03:18 AM »
you can say the same about CPs like the "Drill Resonator" at Descent. Its ridiculous since you dont need more than 2 players to hold those places. In my case its always a grenadier and a medic. The propellants and the sacrifice create such an amazing impact, that they're dying like flies. I left the ammo depot (CP at HM) after defending the place for 4 times in a row. It was boring. I'll say it again: I'm not special and everyone can do that.  However, making it more challenging and dynamic, and creating more cooperation (in the way I mentioned) can be very interesting in my opinion.
Hey I saw you guys yesterday, under Virgils Resonator and in the Ammo Depot. Was wondering what you where doing.

But at that, the testing combination might be a little off, ammo depot is the most boring CP in howling maw easily. And the grenadier & medic combo is extremely powerful, behind it is the spy & engi combo.

But I agree, especially ammo depot could use some reworking to make it a little more interesting.

From the feedback friday  10-10 they seem to be planing to introduce dynamic spawners(Divide first, but more zones are sure to follow)
To complement your Idea it would be cool to have those work with CP's as well.
Seeing if a CP is taken is easier than spotting a receptive sneaking around the base perimeter, so I think it would be very good to have your idea included into the implementation of dynamic spawners.

On that, instead of just standing around the base just out of reach of the turrets; I'd like the devs to set up a optimal plan of attack for each cp(playing a bunch of polymorphed spies if need be) and have the bane take up positions accoring to that and on the next wave execute their plan.
Things like lightbenders on rocks or hills close to the cp so they can shoot over the walls. Keals wired to use jump on wall turrets, but could also try to use the lightbringers' vantage points to see if they can jump directly into the base.
Perhaps even trax engineers able to hack turrets 15 out of every 30 seconds.

Nice idea, I hope they do something with it.

About the co-operation:
We have shared kill credit, I think it's mostly for quest items; you can help any1 whether you are teamed with him or not and still get part of the glory. You don't even need to deal damage to the mob, just healing the guy fighting the boss will count as helping kill it.

I already suggested somewhere they add a ET:QW fireteam like setup to it(but adapt the objectives system to work with TR first) the system is basically there are types of teams fireteams and squads. One is the normal team, you invite a bunch of people and you work together.
The other is based on objectives, when someone doesn't have an objective they get handed one by the game, they then see in a window every other player with that objective, get a chat group for them and depending on whether the objective is is solo or shared reward they get XP for completing it.

TR already has the shared credit system, if it where upgraded a little to do things like determine if players where not only killing the same mob, but killing different mobs at the same CP and auto fire-squad them.
As a different kind of team, you could be in a team and in a fire-squad at the same time; that effectively lays the basis for large multi squad raids and possibly adds a lot more flow to those dynamic map events where loads of players show up.
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Offline fame a

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Re: A Dynamic world
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2008, 09:37:08 AM »
on topic:

Your idea has some good points, but I think that its too complex. I may have misunderstood you. I think that most people will just want to come there and kill, and get squads with people around if they'll be interested at that. I've learned, over the years, that players just "want to play". At least most of them (I'm different. I'm much more calculated and tactic). I think that the best idea would be to let them all come there and start killing, without any need to party (squad). If they want, they'll be able to use a squad once they're there.

About the dynamic spawners in divide, I'm not sure I know enough about them. All I know is that its quite different than what I offer. What I offered is a more dynamic approach to major events in the world (specific map, mostly). Important instances (bane controlled) being completed, and CPs being successfully defended twice (or more). It makes you feel like the bane, all over the map (if things get serious) react to special events. It should be that way in a real war.

There's also another problem with your idea, as far as I know (although I'm not a professional). As far as I know, complex AIs are causing more lags than others. I'll be glad if a real professional can say something about that, because I'm not sure. I think that simple AIs, like those most monsters have, will be enough. I think that a challenge can be achieved by making the monsters stronger (level and/or stats).



off topic:

spy + engineer: The spy's ability to stand there and use some AoE DPS (area of effect damage per second) is extremely inferior to the grenadier and the guardian. Especially grenadiers with sacrifice and propellants. After learning that even the logos abilities are extremely buffed with rage and sacrifice (I think it was the sacrifice mostly. I didnt test, though) and how efficient it is, I can tell that nothing compares. That includes powerful AoE tools like propellant guns (which is a weapon), tectonic strike and scourge.  No, the fire support (FS) cant be compared to those abilities' DPS. I know beacuse I've been using FS in the past. A spy has good single target damage, but its not enough. When things get tough, you must be able to stand there. A spy is much more easily thrown around compared to graviton users. The amount of armor the grenadier has (even with 58 body, or so, like the grenadier we speak of) is also important. The tools are much more efficient when the armor isnt destroyed so easily (like stealth armor).

Engineers have good protection, but they have major disadvantages, among them the inability to resist stun and snare, the shield extender's short duration (When things get tough. ESPECIALLY with stealth armor), and the vulnerability inside the shield. That is especially felt when the kaels come in with their physical damage. Physical critical hits (which are very common at the high levels) cause massive damage, which is 100% armor penetrating. The "spike" they are able to create with their stun, knockback, armor penetration and great damage overall (even without the armor penetration) can make an engineer quite useless for enough time. Enough to kill the engineer and the spy inside the shield. I've been using my engineer in CPs a lot. In fact, I leveled him with CPs alone. I know exactly how problematic it is with all the problems that were mentioned above. Do I also need to mention the fact that almost EVERY boss (in a CP) is using physical or electric damage? You can totally ignore them if you want, if you have the right immunities.

The medic's immunities (especially to electric and physical) cant be matched. Imagine yourself being immune to melee attacks (including Kaels), linkers (who're doing a lot of damage when they're close to each other), and hunters. Lately a lot more thrax started using physical damage as well. That makes the immunities even stronger. Now add, on top of that, the ability to ignore: mag flash (light benders), stuns (kaels, howlers), snare (hunters), damage debuff (laser weapons), electric criticals (I think its more damage. not sure), burn (thrax grenadiers), armor supression (engineers with EMP weapons), virulent criticals and skills like "Ruin" (bosses and caretakers) and more. All those are prevented with "Cure: Protection". Its amazing. it CANT be matched. You can keep 2 people covered with it all the time.

« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 10:56:10 AM by fame a »

Offline System_Crush

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Re: A Dynamic world
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2008, 11:32:52 AM »
@topic
I was talking about auto teaming. So you can just go to a CP and start to kill stuff, it will auto team you with anyone else there, making it easier to co-operate and remove the need for a team leader to step forward and just invite everery1 in sight.
I said that that can even be done while in a team, so you can auto team 2 teams together or a team and a bush of solo players.
(even if that would total more than 6 players together, which as a side note opens up raiding but that isn't important to the topic)

@off topic
The combination is trap and backstab.
Engineers have a trap that has 2000% agro bonus ensuring the spy can back stab things all the time.
Since the counter shieldrone AI update bane move under the shield-bot when attacking targets under it.
The effect is that a spy and engi effectively kill 1 mob per blade re-swing, which is a very fast killing rate especially if you occasionally thrown in a fire support, but it is indeed not AoE so not as efficient as a sacrifice5 + S2 chaingun/flamer.
(BTW did your grenadier try those? S2 chain guns are a lot like physical damage flamethrowers with a tighter cone)

Oh and just a fun fact, Shield Extender5 + Base Wave + Tactical Evasion4 = about 90% damage reduction.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 11:40:22 AM by System_Crush »
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Offline fame a

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Re: A Dynamic world
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2008, 11:54:01 AM »
on topic:

I think its not a good idea because it wont create more cooperation. I might be wrong, but as far as I know the avarage MMO player, he/she would just want to come and kill (and party if he/she will choose to do so).


off topic:
Spy + Engineer: 5 traps are for 5 targets and in really tough CPs they will be destroyed fast (think about CPs 7 levels above you like I mentioned some posts ago). Not only that, but the back stab doesnt nearly kill well enough as a grenadier's AoE. It doesnt even come close. When things get really tough you can easily get overwhelmed by picking them one by one. If things arent tough, anything works. Even rocket launchers.

Just to mention, since its easy to see that you didnt test: The chaingun kills faster than a spy with sacrifice 5 + rage 5 + full spirit brann + 60-90% more spirit (medic buffs) and a physical chaingun. Check it out once and see that a physical chaingun does additional damage when you crit. I dont talk about the crit hit itself. I talk about the additional damage that comes after and is 100% armor penetrating. A level 50 chaingun's additional damage is more than 18,000 for each and every crit. That damage comes 0.5 sec after the crit hit. And guess how many times do you crit with that chaingun and almost 700 spirit (not to mention power regeneration for logos abilities)? Do I also need to mention the fact that you dont need to run around all over the place (with stealth armor!) because you have 30m range? Lets just make sure we all remember the chaingun is shooting 8 times per second.

Base wave doesnt help you when serious spikes come, and they include armor penetrating hits. Shield extender wears off VERY fast with someone who has stealth armor, and even on graviton users. That happens when things get tough. If things werent tough, any combination would work anyway. The tactical evasion works 2/3 of the time, and it matters greatly. Especially(!) when you try to kill them one by one. Not to mention the fact that you can (and will) be kicked out of that cloud and shield, if things get tough.

CCs like stun, knockback and snare (among many others) are still very effective against a spy (AND the engineer) and reduce his ability in critical moments. Those moments are exactly the moments he needs his damage.

When people die in a CP its because they're overwhelmed. when you're overwhelmed, only AoE and CC will save you. Ice propellant guns hit REALLY hard with almost 700 spirit and stun them long enough to die (not to mention that its AoE and not single target). Tectonic strike throws them back and the grenadier's signature ability also helps a lot in critical moments. As you can easily see, the grenadier isnt only capable of great damage (AoE as well as single target), but is also capable of enough CC to help control angry bane crowds. It cant be matched. Its that simple.

One last fact that's very interesting, on top of all facts mentioned above, is the critical chances with logos abilities (which are heavily used by the grenadier I mentioned). With almost 700 spirit, I've seen an unreal critical rate. Once you're able to crit a lot with you logos abilities as well, you're just something else. Its just way stronger than any of the things mentioned above. Add the graviton, which has high max armor, 75% against stun and knockback and 75% more armor regeneration (graviton 5).

It just cant be match by a spy. Not by a long shot. The engineer also has serious problems with CPs. You should notice that most of the problems arise when you're overwhelmed. Those are the really tough parts. Its the real part in the CP's defense. The first two waves are always easy.


The bottom line of many debates such as this is: Everything works. Everything kills. The question will always stay the same. The question is "How far can you go it with? How many levels above you (CP) can you defend with it?".
Lets just remember that some CPs are easier than others. The south-west CP at pools is a great example. That CP is very easy, compared to the monsters' levels.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 09:28:31 PM by fame a »

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Re: A Dynamic world
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2008, 12:44:41 PM »
just a pointer... sacrifice incresases the damage of logos abilities as well as weapon damage, whilst rage does not.

*edit*

Also this seems to be a case of making the CP's harder for the classes that find them too easy whilst for others (ie the largest ones in Howling Maw with 2 entrances) the general tactic seems to be "gather at the Control Point Tower and let them come to us".

Yes, i have lost control points due to a bane sneaking past us (from another entrance) and capping the place.

Granted your off topic section seems to be more about a "specific build" then about gameplay in general (or maybe that influenced it more). MOST people are not playing Brann due to their low health and that without a regular supply of medkits they CANNOT take the incoming aggro....

« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 12:52:41 PM by Gangrel »
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Offline System_Crush

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Re: A Dynamic world
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2008, 03:36:55 PM »
Hey I did say grenardier + medic is way better.
And even though not as optimal I know from experience that the engi + spy works, if there aren't any grenadiers and medics available.

Also the traps are used to draw aggro, they don't need to tank for you, they just need to keep the attention away from the spy. Even so if they are not in the shield drone and shield extender's range you're using them wrong.

Armor ignoring/piercing damage spikes are still reduced by % damage reduction so I have no idea what you are on about.

And of course a chaingun with rage 5 and sacrifice 5 out damages a blade, chainguns are frigging OP.

But we both know grenadier + medic is the best gimmic combination lets leave it at that and quit the derailing discussion.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 03:41:10 PM by System_Crush »
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Offline fame a

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Re: A Dynamic world
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2008, 08:24:55 PM »
************* This post is off topic ****************

just a pointer... sacrifice incresases the damage of logos abilities as well as weapon damage, whilst rage does not.

*edit*

Also this seems to be a case of making the CP's harder for the classes that find them too easy whilst for others (ie the largest ones in Howling Maw with 2 entrances) the general tactic seems to be "gather at the Control Point Tower and let them come to us".

Yes, i have lost control points due to a bane sneaking past us (from another entrance) and capping the place.

Granted your off topic section seems to be more about a "specific build" then about gameplay in general (or maybe that influenced it more). MOST people are not playing Brann due to their low health and that without a regular supply of medkits they CANNOT take the incoming aggro....


I have tried multiple tactics at the double gate CPs at HM (Howling Maw). The one I found to work best for me, as a duo (the duo I described earlier) is "collapsing". You start by dwindling their numbers outside. Then fight and retreat your way to the "flag".

About the brann and what you say here, I can tell you that whoever says that has no idea what he's saying. How do I know that? Because the grenadier I played with had something like 58 body and no survivability problems. Its not the body that will "make or break" it (I'm talking about PvE). Its the team's defense methods that are going to "make or break" it. Immunities and "cure: protection" are  VERY good examples. Additional ways to protect could be the skills we mentioned in the posts above. The best of the ones I didnt mention in this post so far are the shield bot and the shield extender. By the way, watch your hp with almost 700 spirit. Trust me, you're in for a big surprise if you (for example) think they die fast.

Its not like there's no other way, but its just not nearly as good. Body is a good example. Its a way to protect you but its not nearly as good as the protection methods that were mentioned above. The problem with body is that you sacrifice your offense. When you sacrifice your offense, you also sacrifice your defense because your ability to kill is inferior. We met an engineer, not long ago, who was totally convinced that his body is the only way (defense). We went to the Drill Resonator (Descent) and tried both ways. In the end, the conclusion was very clear: He needed a team and not "body". The full mind build deleted crowds (crab mines) and made the defense much easier.


Here are some details from a screenshot I took: Level 48 Brann (the medic, not the grenadier), full spirit: 669 spirit (fully buffed), 46273 hp, 31126 armor (level 45 bio armor), regeneration rate (adrenaline, power and hp) 932%. Every level provides 13 more spirit (fully buffed) and 9% more regeneration. The end result is 695 spirit and 950% regeneration. The signature ability (medic) will mutiply that by 4. Add the defense methods that were mentioned above, and the end result is better survivability than any body build you'll ever create. I actually have large amounts of power to take care of my team (and myself). Please remember that I'm talking about PvE.



Hey I did say grenardier + medic is way better.
And even though not as optimal I know from experience that the engi + spy works, if there aren't any grenadiers and medics available.

Also the traps are used to draw aggro, they don't need to tank for you, they just need to keep the attention away from the spy. Even so if they are not in the shield drone and shield extender's range you're using them wrong.

Armor ignoring/piercing damage spikes are still reduced by % damage reduction so I have no idea what you are on about.

And of course a chaingun with rage 5 and sacrifice 5 out damages a blade, chainguns are frigging OP.

But we both know grenadier + medic is the best gimmic combination lets leave it at that and quit the derailing discussion.
I was trying to have a debate and had no intention to simply derail anyone or anything. Its too bad that it seemed that way to you. You're saying something works, and no one said it isnt. The fact is that everything works, and everything kills. The difference is the efficiency. A good way to test efficiency is to go to CPs that are far above your level (7 levels, for example). I'm not talking about very easy CPs. For example: Its true that the ammo depot is very easy, compared to the CP's level. The south-western CP at pools is also a very good example for an easy CP. Of course you need just a few people, or it doesnt help to prove any efficiency.

You asked what I was on about, and you forgot that I leveled my engineer with CPs alone. Most of the time those were CPs that were 6-7 (mostly 7) levels above me. I have enough examples to provide, if you want. I've always done it with teams of 3. When I'm talking about "tough" and about a "spike", I'm talking about things of that level (level of challenge). The shield extender saves from the initial part of the "spike", yet its not enough because it wears off too soon. I always used it on Graviton/Mech users. The 10 second recharge between the shield extenders is eternity when things are really tough, and it wears off fast when you're under heavy pressure. Stun and knockback, especially in the "right" moments interrupt your ability to put it back sometimes. Its also very good way (good for the bane) to prevent you using the tools. In critical moments, every second counts. Remember that I'm talking about the last wave. The first two waves (especially the first) are always easy. The "real" CP defense starts at the last wave.

Traps can shoot 5 targets at best, if they dont shoot the same target. When things get tough, 5 monsters is a very very small part of the offense, that comes as a horde to you. Traps dont survive that kind of crowd well (7 levels above you) even when they're inside the shield extender and the bot (and its obvious to us both that this is their place). They were also repaired with the cone of the area repair tool (purple, and tools 5).

I'll be glad if you tell me why do you think I was trying to derail anyone or anything. If you show me what makes you think so, I can change it or explain it to you (or both).

*** Edit ***
Fun fact: Scourge's avarage damage at level 50 is a little higher than the  AoE DPS, (which is 50% of the single target damage) of a level 50 laser rocket launcher. In case its not clear enough: When you're in the front lines u dont only get the advantage of propellant guns (which is a huge advantage itself), you also get additional AoE damage that's a little better than the AoE damage of a laser rocket launcher (and lets not forget that rocket launchers hit all monsters, except one, for 50% damage).

The rocket launcher's radius is 10m, and the scourge's radius is 18 (scourge 5). When you add "sacrifice 5" you get +75% damage output, which includes logos abilities (yes Gangrel, you were right). You get 175% of the AoE DPS of rocket launchers just because you're using scourge and sacrifice. Lets remember that I didnt even mention tectonic strike and the almost double radius (AoE radius). Yes, you'll have enough power for these with almost 700 spirit and the medic's signature ability. No, I didnt even calculate the criticals (for logos abilities) with almost 700 spirit (it seems to influence logos abilities' crit rate. I have seen it after testing).

Conclusion: If you're supporting someone, and you need a huge damage output (AoE), get a grenadier who has a "close combat build". The scourge alone will hit harder (AoE damage) than a rocket launcher. Its actually going to be better than 1.75 rocket launchers if you have sacrifice. Thinking about FS (fire support)? look at the recharge and think twice, because it doesnt compare.

I'm not saying this to derail anything or anyone. I'm saying this just to compare fighting methods in the current game design. At CPs mostly.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 11:30:18 AM by fame a »

Offline Mironov

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Re: A Dynamic world
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2008, 05:49:50 PM »
Haven't red all topic, becouse it is war and peace.
my suggestion whould be to add some benefits for having a cp captured, like a boost to armor\regen\damage amybe even xp. So, as long, as a cp is captured by AFS, you have thouse buffs running on the current map (changing locations removes thouse buffs).

Offline fame a

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Re: A Dynamic world
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2008, 09:34:18 PM »
First of all, some of the posts were off topic. Some of the on topic posts had off topic parts. I know I mentioned which part (or post) was off topic. The suggestion itself, in the first post, wasnt so long. Its also easy to see where the suggestion part starts (or ends). However, the Q&A provided information about this topic. On earth we're going to have special CPs. Defending those CPs will have an impact on this map. What will it be and how far will they go with it? We'll see. They said it'll be D15 (Deployment 15).



As for the off topic part of my posts, its quite understandable that some people are misinformed or believe in things that arent true. I dont blame them. Most people dont test each and every thing. If they did, this game would look different and everyone would know every possible fact. A good example is the common belief in the brann's inability to take aggro. When a brann (full spirit) easily survives CP defense that is 7 levels above him (with 2 other friends), you can easily tell what's true (and what's not). Its just a matter of testing.

Again: Most people dont test a lot of things and rely on rumors. Furthermore, many people dont see the huge difference (efficiency difference) between builds (and team builds). This mostly happens because of the attitude of "it works". Just like I said before (and its true): Everything works. Its just that some things work much (MUCH MUCH MUCH!!!) better than others. Its the game design. Its that simple.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2008, 08:08:03 AM by fame a »

Offline fame a

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Re: A Dynamic world
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2008, 04:56:11 PM »
I've been thinking a lot about my suggestion, and I came up with some ideas that might enhance my first suggestion. The following ideas are meant to:
1. Make more classes viable in the overall efforts against the Bane.
2. Reduce the latency and FPS issues.
3. Promote team effort, while still making room for soloing.
4. Provide more options to influence the world by fighting the bane.
5. Provide ways to satisfy both "casual" and "hardcore" players.
6. Provide ways to reduce the load from GMs and developers alike.


My suggestion (in ADDITION to the ones made in my last posts):

1. When a CP is captured and defended successfully for 2-3 times (for example), the bane will respawn faster all over the map. Furthermore, players will recieve a "flashpoint" mission to kill 300 bane (for example) all over the world, but not CP monsters.

2. When a CP is captured and defended successfully for 2-3 times (for example), bane convoys will form and move toward the CP. Their speed can change, depending on the way the developers want it to be. I think it'll be better if they move slowly. I suggest that players will recieve "flashpoint" missions to anihilate those convoys or, at least, kill some of them (the more the merrier).

3. When a CP is captured and defended successfully for 2-3 times (for example), bane will gather reinforcements from places such as bane controlled CPs or bane controlled instances (such as the "live target pens" or "cuthah base"). That was suggested already, but I want to upgrade this part of my suggestion. I suggest that players will recieve "flashpoint" missions to stop those reinforcements. Maybe even recieve a mission that must be completed inside the instance itself (to stop the reinforcements).

The developers could, perhaps, can go as far as creating an instance that isnt private. People will be able to get inside that instance even if others are already in there (since its not private). Any player will have the choice to get a private instance (in case he/she isnt interested in taking part of the overall war). I think it could be better if the public instance (not the private one) is going to be much tougher, and will require the effort of a well coordinated team (or just more people).

4. Whenever people gather 7000 prestige in 4 hours (for example), the bane will attack one of the CPs with a very strong force or even places such as Foreas base (for example). Instead (or in addition) of the 7000 prestige, it could be 50 "flashpoint" missions completed (in 4 hours, for example). It could even be (instead of or in addition to) an overall sum. For example: Each flashpoint mission equals to 500 prestige gained. Another option that comes to my mind, is defending all of the CPs at once (successfully) for 4 hours, but I think that the first options were better. The first options are better, in my opinion, because it makes the "flashpoint" and overall prestige gain more important. That way, the goals (at the top of this post) can be achieved.

EDIT:
Please remember one important detail: The first part of the suggestion included quality over quantity. It was meant to provide a greater challenge, on one hand, and to provide less lags and FPS problems on the other hand. I must remind the readers that single target centered classes (such as the spy or the sniper) will be more viable that way. In case it isnt clear enough: I suggested less monsters, but stronger ones. It could be special thrax with better stats, for exmaple, and/or it could be striders and stalkers.

EDIT 2: I believe it could be a good idea to reward the "flashpoint" missions with prestige (and experience, of course) instead of items.

EDIT 3: Someone suggested auto-party (squad) when people get to where the action is. The more I think about it and the avarage player, the more I'm against it. I was against it for different reasons in my first posts. However, leeching is a major problem when we're talking about auto-party (squad). I'll stick to my suggestions that promote both solo play and team play. I really believe its a good idea to let people form squads if they want to, when they arrive there. Another option could be through the "Looking for Squad" tool, that already exists in the game. Different "Flashpoint" options should be included, if my suggestions are adopted by the developers.

By the way, my suggestion might create guilds that concentrate on helping the overall efforts against the bane (flashpoints and CPs). In case it happens, I believe its going to be a good idea to post recruiting adds at the right forum. When more people use the forum, it'll show random lurkers that this game IS alive and growing in numbers.

Wishful thinking... yes... but you cant blame me :)
« Last Edit: November 08, 2008, 03:25:56 PM by fame a »